Discussion:
particle nature of spacetime?
(too old to reply)
Dale
2015-06-25 22:14:55 UTC
Permalink
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?

I don't think the standard particle model addresses this

if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing", more
"nothing"? space would be some set having a cardinality/ordinality of
infinity, but "nothing" is the null-set and would only exist in
philosophical logic and philosophical mathematics, this is a contradiction

would have to study the mathematics of general relativity to see how
time is proposed to fit in here ...
--
Dale
http://www.dalekelly.org
Odd Bodkin
2015-06-25 22:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
You're right, it doesn't.
Post by Dale
if space is "nothing",
False premise. Space isn't "nothing".
Post by Dale
what is on the other side of "nothing", more
"nothing"? space would be some set having a cardinality/ordinality of
infinity, but "nothing" is the null-set and would only exist in
philosophical logic and philosophical mathematics, this is a contradiction
would have to study the mathematics of general relativity to see how
time is proposed to fit in here ...
--
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
Ralph
2015-06-25 23:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing", more
"nothing"? space would be some set having a cardinality/ordinality of
infinity, but "nothing" is the null-set and would only exist in
philosophical logic and philosophical mathematics, this is a
contradiction
would have to study the mathematics of general relativity to see how
time is proposed to fit in here ...
Space isn't 'nothing'. It is a sea of energy. It's really simple, Dale.
Space is energy, matter is energy, thus matter didn't come from 'nothing'.
Jeanne Douglas
2015-06-26 01:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing", more
"nothing"? space would be some set having a cardinality/ordinality of
infinity, but "nothing" is the null-set and would only exist in
philosophical logic and philosophical mathematics, this is a contradiction
would have to study the mathematics of general relativity to see how
time is proposed to fit in here ...
Start with Physics 1 and work your way up.
--
JD

Being open-minded is merely the willingness to consider
evidence, not the willingness to accept claims without any.
Bob Casanova
2015-06-26 17:20:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:18:01 -0700, the following appeared
in sci.skeptic, posted by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing", more
"nothing"? space would be some set having a cardinality/ordinality of
infinity, but "nothing" is the null-set and would only exist in
philosophical logic and philosophical mathematics, this is a contradiction
would have to study the mathematics of general relativity to see how
time is proposed to fit in here ...
Start with Physics 1 and work your way up.
I'd recommend something a bit less challenging; "See Spot
run", perhaps.
--
Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov
Ralph
2015-06-27 23:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Casanova
On Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:18:01 -0700, the following appeared
in sci.skeptic, posted by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing", more
"nothing"? space would be some set having a cardinality/ordinality of
infinity, but "nothing" is the null-set and would only exist in
philosophical logic and philosophical mathematics, this is a contradiction
would have to study the mathematics of general relativity to see how
time is proposed to fit in here ...
Start with Physics 1 and work your way up.
I'd recommend something a bit less challenging; "See Spot
run", perhaps.
:-))))).

Col. Edmund J. Burke
2015-06-26 01:31:18 UTC
Permalink
"Dale" wrote in message news:***@news.alt.net...

if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?

I don't think the standard particle model addresses this

if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing", more
"nothing"? space would be some set having a cardinality/ordinality of
infinity, but "nothing" is the null-set and would only exist in
philosophical logic and philosophical mathematics, this is a contradiction

would have to study the mathematics of general relativity to see how
time is proposed to fit in here ...

I vote for the cardinality of cordiality any day, little feller.
Jeanne Douglas
2015-06-26 02:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing"
Space isn't "nothing".
--
JD

Being open-minded is merely the willingness to consider
evidence, not the willingness to accept claims without any.
Dale
2015-06-26 04:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Odd Bodkin
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing"
Space isn't "nothing".
what is "nothing" then ?

its at least a concept
concepts are material
the body is material
the brain is part of the body and material
concepts are part of the brain and material

concepts might not be actualizations, but they seem to have more or less
descriptive characteristics of them

could you copy a concept from the brain and compare it to an
actualization? I think I saw some brain imaging on TV where they did
this and what people were thinking looked like the actualizations
--
Dale
http://www.dalekelly.org
Olrik
2015-06-26 04:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
Post by Odd Bodkin
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing"
Space isn't "nothing".
what is "nothing" then ?
You and your ideas. They don't amount to much.
--
Olrik
aa #1981
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
unknown
2015-06-27 00:56:39 UTC
Permalink
<PRE Style='Font-Family: OCR A !important;'><big><big> 
"Infinitity" is too large to measure.
"Zero" is too small to measure.
Jeanne Douglas
2015-06-26 05:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
Post by Odd Bodkin
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing"
Space isn't "nothing".
what is "nothing" then ?
There's no such thing.
--
JD

Being open-minded is merely the willingness to consider
evidence, not the willingness to accept claims without any.
Bob Casanova
2015-06-26 17:20:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Jun 2015 22:23:44 -0700, the following appeared
in sci.skeptic, posted by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Dale
Post by Odd Bodkin
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing"
Space isn't "nothing".
what is "nothing" then ?
There's no such thing.
Certainly not in this universe...
--
Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov
Odd Bodkin
2015-06-26 13:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
Post by Odd Bodkin
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing"
Space isn't "nothing".
what is "nothing" then ?
It's not clear there is an instance of "nothing" in our universe. There
isn't anything you can point to that would fit the bill.
Post by Dale
its at least a concept
So is a nine-legged zebra with purple vertebral spikes. Seen any?

How about a proton with a 0.35 cm diameter. Seen any?
Post by Dale
concepts are material
the body is material
the brain is part of the body and material
concepts are part of the brain and material
concepts might not be actualizations, but they seem to have more or less
descriptive characteristics of them
There are lots of concepts we can come up with that don't match anything
in nature.

The trick is to find concepts which DO match things in nature, because
those are useful physical concepts. "Nothing" doesn't seem to be one of
those useful concepts.
Post by Dale
could you copy a concept from the brain and compare it to an
actualization? I think I saw some brain imaging on TV where they did
this and what people were thinking looked like the actualizations
--
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
Yousuf Khan
2015-06-26 05:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
The Natural or Planck Units seem to address this. A Planck Length seems
to be the ultimate smallest unit of space, while a Planck Time is the
ultimate smallest unit of time. It doesn't mean that you can't invent
numbers smaller than this, they simply won't have any meaning below the
Planck level.

It's a controversial subject, many traditionalists don't believe in
Planck units as being anything more than a mathematical curiosity. That
space and time must extend down infinitesimally. Others think Planck
Units are telling us something fundamental about the universe.
Superstring Theory, with all of its controversy, may be right about one
thing, it envisions its fundamental objects, the strings, as being about
1 Planck Length in size. Some of the strings may grow & inflate to
larger than 1 Planck Length, but none may shrink below it. Even if
Superstring Theory is disproved, this aspect may remain in any other
next-generation theory.

My own take on this is that space and time are just our way of
interpreting the minimum distances between particles (either energy or
matter), and the minimum movements of these particles, respectively. If
no two particles of anything can occupy the exact same space, then the
Planck Length is the minimum space between any two particles. If
particles are moving about, the minimum movement step would have to be
between two adjacent Planck Lengths, and the amount of time that passes
between these two steps is the Planck Time.
Post by Dale
if space is "nothing", what is on the other side of "nothing", more
"nothing"? space would be some set having a cardinality/ordinality of
infinity, but "nothing" is the null-set and would only exist in
philosophical logic and philosophical mathematics, this is a contradiction
Space is a very special nothing, because it's filled with lots of stuff.
Our traditional definition of a vacuum was any volume of space that has
no matter in it. Well as of Einstein's Special Relativity, we've known
that matter is just a special form of energy (it's a phase of energy,
much like ice is a phase of water). Then as of the advent of Quantum
Mechanics (especially Quantum Electrodynamics) we've known that space
must be filled with energy -- huge amounts of energy as a matter of
fact. We call this energy the Quantum Vacuum Energy, or just Vacuum
Energy. This energy just exists because space exists: if space didn't
exist, this energy wouldn't exist either. So since we know matter and
energy are the same thing, if space is filled with energy everywhere,
then there really can't be any real vacuum anywhere in the universe.

Now think of my wording up above, "if space didn't exist, this energy
wouldn't exist either". This implies that space must exist as a
something. There doesn't exist a true nothingness. Mathematicians have
something that's less than nothing, which they call a null set: it's a
true zero, it's entirely abstract, just exists as a thought experiment.
But a true zero doesn't actually exist in this universe (or any other).
Post by Dale
would have to study the mathematics of general relativity to see how
time is proposed to fit in here ...
Time is a dimension just like any of the spatial dimensions, but it
happens to be the direction in which movements are measured. During the
Big Bang, this is the direction that was randomly chosen for the
momentum of the Big Bang to express itself.

Yousuf Khan
Poutnik
2015-06-26 07:08:17 UTC
Permalink
if everything has a wave/particle duality.
Not everything.
--
Poutnik the Wanderer
Bob Casanova
2015-06-26 17:25:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:14:55 -0400, the following appeared
Post by Dale
if everything has a wave/particle duality
It doesn't.
Post by Dale
, what are the particles of
spacetime? and their anti-particles?
What are the particles and antiparticles of appreciation of
art? That question is no more ridiculous than yours.
Post by Dale
I don't think the standard particle model addresses this
You don't think, period.
Post by Dale
if space is "nothing"
It isn't.
Post by Dale
, what is on the other side of "nothing", more
"nothing"? space would be some set having a cardinality/ordinality of
infinity, but "nothing" is the null-set and would only exist in
philosophical logic and philosophical mathematics, this is a contradiction
would have to study the mathematics of general relativity to see how
time is proposed to fit in here ...
Why don't you do that, and get back to us when you can
explain it?
--
Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov
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