Discussion:
spacetime expansion
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Dale
2015-11-04 20:55:45 UTC
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I have heard many times that omni-directional expansion is evidence of
a singularity making a big bang

wouldn't that mean there would be a central point, and direction
surrounding the point for the expansion?

this leads me to think spacetime is a continuum, as opposed to being a
cycle of bangs/crunches or a finite bang then crunch

still would leave room for a multi-verse, if the multi-verse has a
cardinality of spacetime greater than the universe's
--
Dale
http://www.dalekelly.org
Christopher A. Lee
2015-11-05 16:32:12 UTC
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Post by Dale
I have heard many times that omni-directional expansion is evidence of
a singularity making a big bang
That puts the cart before the horse.

It is a consequence of the big bang, and is explained by it.
Post by Dale
wouldn't that mean there would be a central point, and direction
surrounding the point for the expansion?
Not necessarily. We are part of that "central point" which has itself
expanded.
Post by Dale
this leads me to think spacetime is a continuum, as opposed to being a
cycle of bangs/crunches or a finite bang then crunch
It depends what you mean by those words.

The problem is that at we don't have the language to describe a lot of
scientific concepts so much of it is analogy and metaphor. Those who
understand the field understand the metaphors, but those who don't,
don't.

And the physicists use some extremely esoteric mathematics to describe
it, rather than imprecise, everyday words.

A prime example is DNA, which is sometimes called "the genetic code"
even though it isn't a code, just a long, complex molecule that spins
off other complex molecules. It is precisely defined as DNA, one of a
family of nucleic acids and the biologists, geneticists etc don't call
it "the genetic code" among themselves - it is only called that as an
analogy, when trying to describe it to laymen in their language.

With cosmology, you have to understand that the universe is considered
to have a zero sum over its lifetime.

Physics (at the quantum level) knows about causeless events including
the spontaneous appearance of fundamental particles, with the
necessary energy being "borrowed" and "pain back" at the end of their
life.

This is one of the many possibilities for the origin of the universe,
and it breaks no known physical laws.

So straightaway, any potential problem with mass/energy conservation
vanishes. Just as it does with the other scientific speculations which
treat it as a zero sum.
Post by Dale
still would leave room for a multi-verse, if the multi-verse has a
cardinality of spacetime greater than the universe's
It depends what you mean by multiverse, and what properties you think
it might have.

A cut'n'paste from a post I made last year on a similar topic. The
stuff with no ">" marks, with two or with four is mine...
Post by Dale
All evidence points to the contrary. Time is of our
universe. It exists within and because of our universe.
Step outside our universe and there is no such thing as
time.
Time is simply how we measure the sequence of events from our frame
of reference.
Post by Dale
What evidence is that? You have yet to provide any evidence
that your god exists let alone where its digs are.
Time is simply how we measure the order of events.
_We_.
Post by Dale
Unless everything is simultaneous then some events happened
before others, - so there is time.
Even "outside the universe".
Some well respected scientists propose that time did not exist
at or before the Big Bang. It came very soon after.
From our frame of reference.
Because our spacetime expanded from the big bang.
Time is how we measure the sequence of events, and the universe as
we know it started from the big bang. So in our frame of reference
there was no "before the big bang".

But if you're going to talk about what, if anything, caused the big
bang or happened "before" it, you have to do it from a different
time frame - even if it is only theoretical.

The same problem occurs with describing what it happened "in" -
because unless there is something wrong with the concept and
understanding of spacetime, space as we know it didn't exist before
the big bang either.
Post by Dale
But if the big bang occurred "in" something or somewhere, there
is a different concept of time for that somewhere.
Because it is from a different frame of reference.
Post by Dale
Unfortunately the language doesn't have the words for this
different kind of time. But you can qualify everyday words to
show they mean time from a theoretically different time frame.
...but you can't assume you know anything about that theoretical time
frame...
Post by Dale
Call it something like meta-time, in which there was a
meta-before the big bang which happened meta-somewhere.
"It's time, Jim, but not as we know it".
If you go to far with this stuff you tend to get into Dunne's
"infinite regress", because for a dimension to be time-like implies
a succession of states in a defined order, and that tend to imply
yet another time dimension so that you can envisage moving
through time.
That's not the point, which is that we don't even have the language
to discuss it - whatever "it" turns out to be.

And when you come up with it you avoid introducing confusion like
"extra time dimensions" when you really mean "time as perceived in
different frames of reference".

You don't even need to know anything about meta-time, meta-before,
meta-where, etc. Just that they are from a different and theoretical
frame of reference.

And no, it's not like the theist "outside time" and "outside the
universe" because it doesn't claim any unjustified knowledge.

It's just an attempt to come up with meaningful language with which
this can be discussed.

We are inside the event horizon of the big bang, and can't see beyond
it to what if anything is beyond it or meta-before it.

There are a lot of different scenarios which are at present just
thought exercises, and nobody insists that any of them are right.

But in most of them the universe has a zero sum over its life, ie it
all adds up to nothing. Which gets over infinite regression problems,
whatever may or may not have happened meta-before the big bang.

And the scientific speculations break no known laws of physics.

All I'm doing, is trying to overcome language limitations that
introduce confusion and unconscious equivocation due to looking at
things from inside the universe and theorising whatever is beyond the
event horizon of the big bang.

Whichever scenario turns out to be correct, it could be any of them,
or even one we haven't made yet because there are facts we haven't yet
discovered.

An example, using the meta-prefix to avoid ambiguity. Not that I
"believe" this one...

The universe could be infinitely old, with what we live in being just
the latest incarnation, perhaps preceded by a big crunch. In which
case the big crunch would have been meta-before the big bang because
in our frame of reference, time started there. But from the different
time frame of the "whatever the big-bang occurred in", it was
"before".

And it doesn't matter what the "whatever" actually is. It is a
meta-somewhere that could be the n-dimensional space of string
theory, it could be absolute nothingness, or it could be anything
else.

A bit like the X in an equation. You don't need to know whether it is
apples, pizzas or leprechauns - it is a useful abstraction.
Mr. B1ack
2016-01-21 02:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
I have heard many times that omni-directional expansion is evidence of
a singularity making a big bang
wouldn't that mean there would be a central point, and direction
surrounding the point for the expansion?
There is no center ... at least not in a three-dimensional
sense like the center of a sphere.

The best (only?) way to visualize it is to drop a dimension
and think of the universe as a rubber balloon with all the
galaxies drawn onto it. An "expanding universe" in this
view means adding air to the balloon. The "space", the
rubber membrane, gets bigger and the galaxies move
further apart as a result.

And what's in the middle ? "Nothing" perhaps, or there
could be lots and lots of balloons inside each other.
Moving towards the center in the proposed model
means travel in a 3rd dimension for 2-D creatures
from a curved 2-D universe. For us it'd mean travel
in a 4th dimension by 3-D creatures from a 3-D
universe. Might not be possible at all ; we just
don't bend that way.

Yea, yea ... push *really* hard with a pencil and make
a deep "dent" that reaches 4-D inwards. Still doesn't
get us out of OUR plane really ... unless you push so
hard you pop our universe :-)

Oh ... and any other "balloons" further inwards (or
outwards) ... the laws of physics may be different
and it'd be like some videogame guy trying to climb
out of the screen into our universe - he doesn't
actually exist as a definite unified cohesive "thing"
here by our rules of reality.

Best chance of transversing between balloons is if
they obey some sort of quantum rule kind of like
electron "shells" around atoms ... where if you add
or subtract the right amount of energy in the right
way the electrons just cease to exist in one shell
and appear in the next without any travel in-between.
That way you don't have to "pop" any universes.

So, the "bang" created the balloon and pumped air
into it (and apparently still is). We're just stuck along
the expanding surface of the balloon. Maybe it'll
eventually get over-inflated ???
Post by Dale
this leads me to think spacetime is a continuum, as opposed to being a
cycle of bangs/crunches or a finite bang then crunch
Doesn't look like there's gonna be a "crunch" at all, just
continual expansion until every star goes dark and every
bit of matter decomposes and "empty space" gets to
about absolute zero and no part of the universe is any
different from any other part. They're trying to invent
an invisible force - "dark matter" - to slow this down a
bit but the history of convenient "unseen things/forces"
in physics is pretty dismal so "dark matter" may be
a bust ... just a band-aid to cover something more
fundamentally wrong in our mathematics of reality.

Wasn't Newtons fault he didn't have the instrumentation
or body of math tricks to see that his static universe
wasn't quite so static ... it took a few hundred more
years of research and thinking and mathematical
methods and improved instrumentation to allow us
to pull off that band-aid and come up with a whole
new way of seeing things.

Hey, spacetime distortions may get more intense
depending on the volume of spacetime disturbed
- and galaxies and galactic clusters are big - according
to some exponential rule that makes it hard for us to
see the effect at smaller scales just as Newton
couldn't detect the precession of Mercurys orbit or the
displacement of apparent star postions if they passed
very near the sun ...... ???
Post by Dale
still would leave room for a multi-verse, if the multi-verse has a
cardinality of spacetime greater than the universe's
There are a few ways to do multiverses ... balloons inside
balloons, lots of balloons all clustered around each other,
possibly even "multiplexing" (one real universe that
cycles rapidly between various modes at some higher-D
level each with its own characteristics and preserved
history.

If you take Steve Wolframs physics-via-cellular-automata
model into account (imho it's really superstrings viewed
through a computer scientists eye) where the smallest unit
of universe acts like a cheap computing device interacting
by a handful of rules with its neighbors to ultimately create
an emergent reality of particles and atoms and everything
else ... well ... a multiverse is "multitasking" at some level
of the vast holocomputer, maybe at the smallest level or
just a few steps above.

Of course who's to say (yet) that multiverses don't exist
as a combination of, or all of, the abovementioned
possibilities ? Once you have "stuff" there's often a lot of
ways to arrange it ....

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