Discussion:
No, Science Is Not Faith-Based
(too old to reply)
Garrison Hilliard
2016-03-11 15:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Faith, by definition, is the belief in something despite insufficient
knowledge to be certain of its veracity. Some beliefs require small
leaps of faith (the example that the Sun will rise tomorrow), as the
body of evidence supporting that prediction is overwhelming, while
others – the existence of dark matter, the inflationary origin of our
Universe, or the possibility of room-temperature superconductivity —
may still be likely, but may also reasonably turn out to be
wrongheaded. Yet in every case, there are two key components that make
the prediction scientific:

The prediction, or the belief that the outcome can be accurately
predicted, is predicated on the existence of quality evidence.
As the evidence changes — as we obtain more, newer and better evidence
— and as the full suite of evidence expands, our predictions,
postdictions and entire conceptions of the Universe change along with
it.
There is no such thing as a good scientist who isn’t willing to both
base their scientific belief on the full suite of evidence available,
nor is there such a thing as a good scientist who won’t revise their
beliefs in the face of new evidence.

Image credit: public domain / US Government, of a schematic of how
LIGO works. Modifications made by Krzysztof Zajaczkowski.
Image credit: public domain / US Government, of a schematic of how
LIGO works. Modifications made by Krzysztof Zajaczkowski.

We may have had faith that Einstein’s predictions, and the existence
of gravitational waves, would turn out to be correct, and that LIGO
would make the greatest scientific discovery of the 21st century so
far. But if it hadn’t been true — if advanced LIGO had reached design
sensitivity and seen nothing for years, or if it had seen something
that conflicted with Einstein’s theory — that faith would be
instantaneously discarded, and replaced by something even better: a
quest to discover how to extend and supersede Einstein’s greatest
accomplishment to account for the new evidence.

Image credit: NASA, Goddard Space Flight Center, of an illustration of
the expanding Universe.
Image credit: NASA, Goddard Space Flight Center, of an illustration of
the expanding Universe.

The fundamental question is neither what the object of humanity’s
faith will be nor how far it will extend, but rather how far you’re
willing-and-able to test your most deeply held beliefs, and whether
you’ll have the courage to change your conclusions to follow where the
evidence guides. That is what separates science from anything
faith-based, and why any faith-based belief system will never be
considered scientific.


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Astrophysicist and author Ethan Siegel is the founder and primary
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Tumblr, and order his book: Beyond The Galaxy, today!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/03/08/science-is-not-faith-based-no-matter-what-the-wall-street-journal-says/#464828556055

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Dale
2016-03-17 16:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrison Hilliard
belief in something despite insufficient
knowledge
does anything in science have 100% accuracy and precision? if not it is
faith based
--
Dale
http://www.dalekelly.org
Bob Officer
2016-03-17 18:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
Post by Garrison Hilliard
belief in something despite insufficient
knowledge
does anything in science have 100% accuracy and precision? if not it is
faith based
Faith is a belief held to be true without evidence or in the face of
contradictory evidence. faith is held to be true without question or
challenge. When faith exists without the right to question or challenge
then faith become dogmatic in its nature and a religion edged in fanaticism
in many cases.

Science is information held to be true with supporting data and evidence
often verified by experiment or independent observations, but still open to
question and challenge provided you have evidence and data to support your
challenge.

The difference between science and faith:
faith is fixed and static and based upon belief.
Science is always subject to question and is flexible and subject to change
as new data, techniques and technology is developed.
--
Yep it is me, and Carole believes adding 2+2 can sometimes equal 3 or 5,
and getting wrong answers means you are thinking outside the box.
Dale
2016-03-18 18:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Officer
faith is fixed and static and based upon belief.
Science is always subject to question and is flexible and subject to
change as new data, techniques and technology is developed.
the way I interpret it, inference is the means to faith and there are
degrees of faith

to get 100% accuracy and precision you use inference, deduction or
induction, other wise you would have science (from the Latin "scientia" or
"knowing")

(1) full deduction requires science of the whole of all things to arrive at
all the pieces of all things

(2) full induction requires science of all the parts of all things to arrive
at the whole of all things

(3) partial induction, like all red cows are cows, cannot arrive at the
whole of all things, less than 100% correlation

partial deduction does not work, all cows cannot be known as red cows, and
cannot be used to arrive at all the pieces of all things, 0% correlation

when full inference is reached by (1), (2), (3), etc. then faith will not be
required and you would have full science, other wise you have partial
science by (3)
--
Dale
http://www.dalekelly.org
e***@hotmail.com
2016-03-19 02:40:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
Post by Garrison Hilliard
belief in something despite insufficient
knowledge
does anything in science have 100% accuracy and precision? if not it is
faith based
There is a major difference between; "I believe it because I have faith that it's true." and "I believe it because the data indicates that it's correct." Mind, the data doesn't have to be complete. In fact, there's very little that we COULD have a complete dataset of, but there's still data to be compiled. There is NO data in a faith-based system, just faith.
Bob Officer
2016-03-19 07:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Dale
Post by Garrison Hilliard
belief in something despite insufficient
knowledge
does anything in science have 100% accuracy and precision? if not it is
faith based
There is a major difference between; "I believe it because I have faith
that it's true." and "I believe it because the data indicates that it's
correct." Mind, the data doesn't have to be complete. In fact, there's
very little that we COULD have a complete dataset of, but there's still
data to be compiled. There is NO data in a faith-based system, just faith.
And that is the hard line in the sand. Faith versus knowledge.

Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Dale
2016-03-19 16:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Officer
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Dale
Post by Garrison Hilliard
belief in something despite insufficient
knowledge
does anything in science have 100% accuracy and precision? if not it is
faith based
There is a major difference between; "I believe it because I have faith
that it's true." and "I believe it because the data indicates that it's
correct." Mind, the data doesn't have to be complete. In fact, there's
very little that we COULD have a complete dataset of, but there's still
data to be compiled. There is NO data in a faith-based system, just faith.
And that is the hard line in the sand. Faith versus knowledge.
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
look at inference

pure deduction requires a priori knowledge of the whole to arrive at all the
pieces, faith

pure induction requires a priori knowledge of all the pieces to arrive at
the whole, faith

the is no partial deduction, like the false statement "all cows are red
cows" cannot be proven without more inference

there is partial induction, such as "all red cows are cows", this is where
the scientific process is used to arrive at faith
--
Dale
http://www.dalekelly.org
The BORG
2016-03-20 05:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Officer
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Not true at all.
Faith means that you do Science and that kind of thing WITH a
knowledge of a Creator/s - Greater Intelligence of some kind.
So the Men should look FOR intelligence/humour and that kind of thing
WHILE you do Science.

Science on it's own is sheer stupidity and you will get nowhere like
that.

You have to work WITH The Creator/s in order to Learn the Truth.

Science, Philosophy, Religion and many other paths and roads that Men
travel are a Quest to find the Truth.
And Quest to find the Real Answers.

But you MUST believe in a Greater Intelligence of some kind.
You MUST believe in Creator/s or an Intelligent Design of some kind.

A belief of that kind is one of things that separates and
differentiates Men from animals.

However you do not have to believe in any of the Religions.
IN fact you should NOT believe in any of the Religions.
They are only there to TEST for intelligence and if you believe in any
of them then you FAIL the Test for intelligence.

So you are welcome to reject the Religions. But do not throw the baby
out with the bath water, and if you do reject the Religions, then make
sure you continue with some kind of Belief and some kind of Faith.

That is the POINT of Life.
Do not leave that part out.
Virgil
2016-03-20 06:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by The BORG
Post by Bob Officer
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Not true at all.
Faith means that you do Science and that kind of thing WITH a
knowledge of a Creator/s - Greater Intelligence of some kind.
Faith requires that some things be beyond question.
Science requires that nothing can be beyond question.
--
Virgil
"Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller)
Bob Officer
2016-03-21 04:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Post by Bob Officer
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Not true at all.
Faith means that you do Science and that kind of thing WITH a
knowledge of a Creator/s - Greater Intelligence of some kind.
Faith requires that some things be beyond question.
Science requires that nothing can be beyond question.
Science requires that faith be suspended. And all bias be avoided.

Faith is a bias.
Virgil
2016-03-21 07:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Post by Bob Officer
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Not true at all.
Faith means that you do Science and that kind of thing WITH a
knowledge of a Creator/s - Greater Intelligence of some kind.
Faith requires that some things be beyond question.
Science requires that nothing can be beyond question.
Science requires that faith be suspended. And all bias be avoided.
Faith is a bias.
Science is merely a sort of faith that much of the future is
predictable, and some is even controllable!
--
Virgil
"Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller)
Jeanne Douglas
2016-03-21 08:12:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Post by Bob Officer
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Not true at all.
Faith means that you do Science and that kind of thing WITH a
knowledge of a Creator/s - Greater Intelligence of some kind.
Faith requires that some things be beyond question.
Science requires that nothing can be beyond question.
Science requires that faith be suspended. And all bias be avoided.
Faith is a bias.
Science is merely a sort of faith that much of the future is
predictable, and some is even controllable!
Nonsense.
--
JD

"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to
your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake
the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14
Virgil
2016-03-21 14:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Virgil
Science is merely a sort of faith that much of the future is
predictable, and some is even controllable!
Nonsense.
Well, at any rate faith in science is such a faith!

And is much more reliable a faith than faith in any gods.
--
Virgil
"Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller)
Bob Officer
2016-03-21 21:42:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Post by Bob Officer
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Not true at all.
Faith means that you do Science and that kind of thing WITH a
knowledge of a Creator/s - Greater Intelligence of some kind.
Faith requires that some things be beyond question.
Science requires that nothing can be beyond question.
Science requires that faith be suspended. And all bias be avoided.
Faith is a bias.
Science is merely a sort of faith that much of the future is
predictable, and some is even controllable!
No science a method of systematically generating and testing of data, the
examining methods of gathering data.

No faith involved.

Do you remember basic high school geometry class. When taught in the
classical method, there is a logic profession of knowledge and testing that
knowledge.

Modern Science is based on the same basic premise. Controlling variables,
examining results and replication of results.
Virgil
2016-03-21 22:40:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Post by Bob Officer
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Not true at all.
Faith means that you do Science and that kind of thing WITH a
knowledge of a Creator/s - Greater Intelligence of some kind.
Faith requires that some things be beyond question.
Science requires that nothing can be beyond question.
Science requires that faith be suspended. And all bias be avoided.
Faith is a bias.
Science is merely a sort of faith that much of the future is
predictable, and some is even controllable!
No science a method of systematically generating and testing of data, the
examining methods of gathering data.
No faith involved.
Not a faith that what regularly happens in a given set of circumstances
will continue regularly to happen in those same circumstances?
Post by Bob Officer
Do you remember basic high school geometry class. When taught in the
classical method, there is a logic profession of knowledge and testing that
knowledge.
Modern Science is based on the same basic premise. Controlling variables,
examining results and replication of results.
Modern Science is still based on the same basic premise, that what
regularly happens in a given set of circumstances will continue
regularly to happen in those same circumstances!
--
Virgil
"Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller)
e***@hotmail.com
2016-03-27 14:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Post by Bob Officer
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Not true at all.
Faith means that you do Science and that kind of thing WITH a
knowledge of a Creator/s - Greater Intelligence of some kind.
Faith requires that some things be beyond question.
Science requires that nothing can be beyond question.
Science requires that faith be suspended. And all bias be avoided.
Faith is a bias.
Science is merely a sort of faith that much of the future is
predictable, and some is even controllable!
No science a method of systematically generating and testing of data, the
examining methods of gathering data.
No faith involved.
Not a faith that what regularly happens in a given set of circumstances
will continue regularly to happen in those same circumstances?
Post by Bob Officer
Do you remember basic high school geometry class. When taught in the
classical method, there is a logic profession of knowledge and testing that
knowledge.
Modern Science is based on the same basic premise. Controlling variables,
examining results and replication of results.
Modern Science is still based on the same basic premise, that what
regularly happens in a given set of circumstances will continue
regularly to happen in those same circumstances!
If that were true, we would have accepted cold fusion. As the researchers "results" were never able to be replicated, the cold fusion theory died.

Results have to be replicated before they will be accepted. Sorry you don't understand that.
Virgil
2016-03-27 23:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Virgil
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Post by Bob Officer
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
Not true at all.
Faith means that you do Science and that kind of thing WITH a
knowledge of a Creator/s - Greater Intelligence of some kind.
Faith requires that some things be beyond question.
Science requires that nothing can be beyond question.
Science requires that faith be suspended. And all bias be avoided.
Faith is a bias.
Science is merely a sort of faith that much of the future is
predictable, and some is even controllable!
No science a method of systematically generating and testing of data, the
examining methods of gathering data.
No faith involved.
Not a faith that what regularly happens in a given set of circumstances
will continue regularly to happen in those same circumstances?
Post by Bob Officer
Do you remember basic high school geometry class. When taught in the
classical method, there is a logic profession of knowledge and testing that
knowledge.
Modern Science is based on the same basic premise. Controlling variables,
examining results and replication of results.
Modern Science is still based on the same basic premise, that what
regularly happens in a given set of circumstances will continue
regularly to happen in those same circumstances!
If that were true, we would have accepted cold fusion. As the researchers
"results" were never able to be replicated, the cold fusion theory died.
A conclusion often reached wrt "cold fusion" is that the original set of
circumstances were not correctly described, thus incapable of being
replicated from the described circumstances.
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Results have to be replicated before they will be accepted. Sorry you don't
understand that.
Exact replication is impossible. The issue is whether sufficient
replication is possible to produce repetition of a particular result of
interest.
--
Virgil
"Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller)
The BORG
2016-03-20 06:08:11 UTC
Permalink
Things like Justice, Right and Truth exist BECAUSE there is that
Greater Intelligence you see.
And whether you believe in it or no, you still have to live by the
same Rules and that means that if you do what is Wrong, you ALWAYS
have a Price to pay.

And you will pay that Price in the Future, either in your current Life
or in Future lives.

Although Men do "some" Sins and they do "some" things that are Wrong,
the women do considerably more and some of their Sins are very serious
indeed and women actually do "Evil" which is something that Men do not
do.
Such as feminism or abortion or making a Mockery of Justice or
Religion.

The Sins of women are so bad that they are punished for some of their
Sins after death.
There is not enough suffering on Earth with which to punish them.
So they suffer after death and before they are reborn back onto Earth.

But ONLY the women do get the very severe "going to Hell" type
punishments because the Sins and Evil that they do are much worse and
much more serious than what the Men do.

The Men do not do nearly as many Sins as the women do and the Sins
they do are not as Bad and not as Serious.
The BORG
2016-03-20 06:20:54 UTC
Permalink
The Men are ALLOWED to do all the Men's Professions and Men's
Interests whereas the women are NOT ALLOWED to do those kind of
things.
So the women get punished if they do.
We have written in our Messages the things that the women are NOT
allowed to do, so that they can avoid the punishments.

Women are supposed to be obedient, and they must honour and respect
and obey the Men at all times.
They do not have to "love" the Men, but they MUST obey them.

The Men MUST be Dominant and in charge, and they MUST Lead the way
into the Future and any women who interfere with that, are the ones
who get the very severe "going to Hell" type punishments that occur
after death.

They can be very bad and can last some considerable time.

So there is not a lot that Men can actually do wrong.
They are even allowed to be violent to women and even rape them in
order to make her obedient or to make her learn her place and there is
no penalty if Men are violent to women or if they rape them.

Men do get punished if they produce crap music such as Rap, or if they
abuse Pleasure and make it filthy or foul or unclean or obscene, or if
they portray any Angels as women.
Black people in white countries, pet-keeping and a few other things
such as supporting women in feminism and abortion or any other of
their Evil and Sins are some of the things that the Men can do that
are Wrong.

And what the Men do that is Wrong, can be dealt with by suffering that
they receive during normal life on Earth.
Losing arms or legs, cancers, hurricanes, earthquakes, bereavement,
and various misfortunes are sufficient for dealing with punishing the
Men when they Men do what is Wrong.

Whereas the Sins that women do, which are much more numerous and much
more serious, do sometimes have to be dealt with after death.

So it is only women who should Fear death.
The Men will be reborn again and the only thing they have to Fear is
any misfortune that they will have during normal life.
The Men never get anything worse than that namely because they never
DO anything that warrants anything worse than that.

Mind you, to be reborn as a black man when you are currently a white
man is not much fun eh?
Virgil
2016-03-20 06:22:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by The BORG
Things like Justice, Right and Truth exist BECAUSE there is that
Greater Intelligence you see.
If that were so then how can it be that "Justice, Right and Truth"
differ so much from one society to another?

If there were any Universal Justice, or Universal Right or Universal
Truth, they would be Universal, which they clearly are NOT on this Earth!

About the closest we can get is that the truths of science are more
nearly universal than any others.
--
Virgil
"Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller)
Bob Officer
2016-03-21 01:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Things like Justice, Right and Truth exist BECAUSE there is that
Greater Intelligence you see.
If that were so then how can it be that "Justice, Right and Truth"
differ so much from one society to another?
If there were any Universal Justice, or Universal Right or Universal
Truth, they would be Universal, which they clearly are NOT on this Earth!
About the closest we can get is that the truths of science are more
nearly universal than any others.
Is Borg insane?
--
Yep it is me, and Carole believes adding 2+2 can sometimes equal 3 or 5,
and getting wrong answers means you are thinking outside the box.
Jeanne Douglas
2016-03-21 01:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Things like Justice, Right and Truth exist BECAUSE there is that
Greater Intelligence you see.
If that were so then how can it be that "Justice, Right and Truth"
differ so much from one society to another?
If there were any Universal Justice, or Universal Right or Universal
Truth, they would be Universal, which they clearly are NOT on this Earth!
About the closest we can get is that the truths of science are more
nearly universal than any others.
Is Borg insane?
Very. Completely.
--
JD

"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to
your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake
the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14
Bob Officer
2016-03-21 04:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeanne Douglas
Post by Bob Officer
Post by Virgil
Post by The BORG
Things like Justice, Right and Truth exist BECAUSE there is that
Greater Intelligence you see.
If that were so then how can it be that "Justice, Right and Truth"
differ so much from one society to another?
If there were any Universal Justice, or Universal Right or Universal
Truth, they would be Universal, which they clearly are NOT on this Earth!
About the closest we can get is that the truths of science are more
nearly universal than any others.
Is Borg insane?
Very. Completely.
Thank you for the conformation.

I dislike people posting in sci.skeptic that neither know what science is
nor how to do actual science.
Jørgen Farum Jensen
2016-03-22 12:08:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale
Post by Bob Officer
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Dale
Post by Garrison Hilliard
belief in something despite insufficient
knowledge
does anything in science have 100% accuracy and precision? if not it is
faith based
There is a major difference between; "I believe it because I have faith
that it's true." and "I believe it because the data indicates that it's
correct." Mind, the data doesn't have to be complete. In fact, there's
very little that we COULD have a complete dataset of, but there's still
data to be compiled. There is NO data in a faith-based system, just faith.
And that is the hard line in the sand. Faith versus knowledge.
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
look at inference
pure deduction requires a priori knowledge of the whole to arrive at all the
pieces, faith
pure induction requires a priori knowledge of all the pieces to arrive at
the whole, faith
the is no partial deduction, like the false statement "all cows are red
cows" cannot be proven without more inference
there is partial induction, such as "all red cows are cows", this is where
the scientific process is used to arrive at faith
All your points are totally wrong, as they must be when
you presuppose the existence of a creator of the whole.
--
Jørgen Farum Jensen
"Science has proof without any certainty.
Creationists have certainty without any proof."
— Ashley Montagu
Bob Officer
2016-03-22 19:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jørgen Farum Jensen
Post by Dale
Post by Bob Officer
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Dale
Post by Garrison Hilliard
belief in something despite insufficient
knowledge
does anything in science have 100% accuracy and precision? if not it is
faith based
There is a major difference between; "I believe it because I have faith
that it's true." and "I believe it because the data indicates that it's
correct." Mind, the data doesn't have to be complete. In fact, there's
very little that we COULD have a complete dataset of, but there's still
data to be compiled. There is NO data in a faith-based system, just faith.
And that is the hard line in the sand. Faith versus knowledge.
Faith demands one never challenges
Knowledge demands none stop questioning.
look at inference
pure deduction requires a priori knowledge of the whole to arrive at all the
pieces, faith
pure induction requires a priori knowledge of all the pieces to arrive at
the whole, faith
the is no partial deduction, like the false statement "all cows are red
cows" cannot be proven without more inference
there is partial induction, such as "all red cows are cows", this is where
the scientific process is used to arrive at faith
All your points are totally wrong, as they must be when
you presuppose the existence of a creator of the whole.
He must have missed the classes on logic.
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