If Aliens Talk, How Will We Respond ?

Probable dolphin conversations:

"Hey, there are some tasty fish over here. Help me catch some."
"Wanna join my gang?"
"Hi, girl (dolphin), wanna have sex?"
"Stay away from my child, you beast!"
"How are we gonna light that damned fire?"
"Let's play!"

Post by Mr. B1ack
So ... let's be honest here ... if aliens talk WE WON'T
UNDERSTAND THEM. Might be decades to even realize
there was any "talking" going on in the first place.
Dolphins are comparatively near relatives ... fellow mammals.
Yet for all our skills and tech ... nada. Aliens would be, well,
ALIEN. Far less shared context and zero shared genetic history.
Even if they TRIED to talk to us, rather than us just eavedropping
on an ET phone call, the results might be nil. So I just don't see
it as being like in the movies.

The basic premise of many SETI concepts is that aliens will be sending out
some sort of dictionary and encyclopedia that can be universally translated
using mathematical language. Not random conversations.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Mr. B1ack

2016-11-26 19:19:02 UTC

On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 09:01:41 -0000, "Mike Dworetsky"

"Hey, there are some tasty fish over here. Help me catch some."
"Wanna join my gang?"
"Hi, girl (dolphin), wanna have sex?"
"Stay away from my child, you beast!"
"How are we gonna light that damned fire?"
"Let's play!"

They're horny devils ... I'd expect conversation
that'd make Trump blush :-)

That's assuming a deliberate contact attempt. Far
more likely we'll accidently intercept some kind of
transmission ... assuming They aren't WAY past
radio waves by now.

Even worse, like us they'd likely use some sort of
data-compression scheme, maybe packetization
too. It'd be like Marconi coming across a cell-phone
signal ... frequency-hopping compressed packets
with routing info appended ... just a hiss .......

And even if it's a deliberate communications attempt,
where to start ? Sure, you can send a bunch of
mathematical constants and such ... but that's just
a math lesson in whatever math ET thinks is of
importance. From there to words concepts and
meaning between species with perhaps a
*drastically* different experience of the universe
...... not hopeful.

Humans are sure to keep modifying themselves,
always looking for "better" even as the meaning of
that word changes. Some may wind up as 'VR',
others as mostly-synthetic "newflesh" with some
basic tech grown right into the neoneurons. IQ
may double in 100 years ... which is an effective
order of magnitude in terms of intellectual
capabilities. Would the "new us" have much luck
relating to the "old us" or vice-versa ? SUCH a
different experience leading to SUCH different
ways of thinking.

Jonathan

2016-11-27 10:58:44 UTC

Post by Mr. B1ack
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5224609529001/?playlist_id=1821663211001
Ya know ... for over 50 years now we've been trying to
understand what Dolphins are talking about. We can
mathematically demonstrate that they ARE having
conversations, that there IS a sophisticated vocabulary
and grammar there, but we're basically clueless about
the content.
So ... let's be honest here ... if aliens talk WE WON'T
UNDERSTAND THEM. Might be decades to even realize
there was any "talking" going on in the first place.
Dolphins are comparatively near relatives ... fellow mammals.
Yet for all our skills and tech ... nada. Aliens would be, well,
ALIEN. Far less shared context and zero shared genetic history.
Even if they TRIED to talk to us, rather than us just eavedropping
on an ET phone call, the results might be nil. So I just don't see
it as being like in the movies.

Well, my grey parrot has a brain the size of a thimble
yet she has no problem communicating the following to
me, and in clear plain English. Although sometimes
she mumbles "hungry" with her mouth still full of food.

A sentient alien should be able to do far better.

"Hello"...whenever I walk near to her, or after my phone rings
"Come here" ...she wants to stand on my shoulder.
"Go for a walk"...she wants me to take her out of her cage.
"Hungry"....she spots food and wants a bite
"How are you"....she's thirsty, only said when she's on my left shoulder
"I like you"....what she says if I ignore "Come here"
"You're a good boy"...what she says if I still ignore "Come here"
"Good morning"...when I first see her each morning
"You're a dog"...randomly when on my right shoulder.
(I used to have a dog and regularly said that to him, once
he died she started saying it to me)
"low pitched growling"...whenever she's annoyed
"ear piercing screech"....whenever I startle her

Along with various bird mimics, her favorite seems
to be a seagull at a distance, plus a perfect police siren
and the dreaded smoke detector screech when the battery
is dead.

Mr. B1ack

2016-11-28 02:50:24 UTC

Post by Jonathan

I've always been impressed with parrots and
the corvids. Apparently those dinosaur-derived
brains are wired-up MUCH more efficiently than
our mammalian versions. The birdies get HUGE
bang for the buck.

Which should make us wonder how smart the
actual dinos were ....

Post by Jonathan
A sentient alien should be able to do far better.

MAYbe. And that's assuming a deliberate attempt
at communication. However we're far far more
likely to simply intercept an alien communication
that wasn't intended for us. It'd be amazing if we
even realized what it was.

And radio SUCKS ... the speed of light is way too
slow. ET would never use radio to phone home.

Post by Jonathan
"Hello"...whenever I walk near to her, or after my phone rings
"Come here" ...she wants to stand on my shoulder.
"Go for a walk"...she wants me to take her out of her cage.
"Hungry"....she spots food and wants a bite
"How are you"....she's thirsty, only said when she's on my left shoulder
"I like you"....what she says if I ignore "Come here"
"You're a good boy"...what she says if I still ignore "Come here"
"Good morning"...when I first see her each morning
"You're a dog"...randomly when on my right shoulder.
(I used to have a dog and regularly said that to him, once
he died she started saying it to me)
"low pitched growling"...whenever she's annoyed
"ear piercing screech"....whenever I startle her
Along with various bird mimics, her favorite seems
to be a seagull at a distance, plus a perfect police siren
and the dreaded smoke detector screech when the battery
is dead.

Be careful not to confuse mimicry with *understanding*.
Those birds ARE smart-ish, but how well they actually
derive any *meaning* from what we say is surely
over-estimated.

Jonathan

2016-11-29 01:09:50 UTC

Post by Mr. B1ack

Post by Jonathan

I've always been impressed with parrots and
the corvids. Apparently those dinosaur-derived
brains are wired-up MUCH more efficiently than
our mammalian versions. The birdies get HUGE
bang for the buck.
Which should make us wonder how smart the
actual dinos were ....

Post by Jonathan
A sentient alien should be able to do far better.

MAYbe. And that's assuming a deliberate attempt
at communication. However we're far far more
likely to simply intercept an alien communication
that wasn't intended for us. It'd be amazing if we
even realized what it was.
And radio SUCKS ... the speed of light is way too
slow. ET would never use radio to phone home.

Be careful not to confuse mimicry with *understanding*.
Those birds ARE smart-ish, but how well they actually
derive any *meaning* from what we say is surely
over-estimated.

I've had the bird a long time and she clearly associates
an event or context with a sound. For instance she
never says 'hungry' unless she spots food.

She never asks for drink 'how are you', unless she sees
my drink and is leaning towards it.

Or 'hello' only when placed on my shoulder or just after
the...second ring of my phone.

Or 'go for a walk' only when shes in her cage clawing
to get out.

Or 'come here come here' only when on per perch next
to my easy chair and she's leaning to indicate she
wants on my shoulder.

And so on, the mimics never come randomly but only in
the appropriate context she learned them.

I tend to take a deep breath then let out an audible 'sigh'.
So now when I take a deep breath...she lets out the
same audible sigh, perfectly timed.

Or when I bend over to pick something up when she's
on my shoulder, just as I reach it she'll let out
the same little 'grunt' I do when stretching
to reach it.

She has a sad descending whistle she gives out
each time I go to put her back in her cage, her
version of a guilt trip. It works too.

One thing I've learned is that in an argument
the bird usually wins as she is very persistent
when wanting something. Like a kid she won't
let it go, but keeps on pestering me until
I cave.

s

Meteorite Debris

2016-11-27 13:45:18 UTC

The best response might be silence. Given how we demonise members of our
own species how might ET species view us? But most probably ETs may be
rare on average succumbing to some variable of Drake's Equation.

Mr. B1ack

2016-11-28 02:52:35 UTC

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 00:15:18 +1030, Meteorite Debris

Could be ... but remember that since we don't know any
intelligent alien species any estimations about their
psychology is really just a mirror of our OWN. Since
WE act like 'Klingons' fairly often we just presume that
ET must think that way too.

Mike Dworetsky

2016-11-27 18:44:10 UTC

Would we even recognise them as intelligent?

Consider the science-fiction novel by Brian Aldiss, The Dark Light Years, in
which spacefaring humans encounter an alien species (the Utod) that shows no
interest in communication with humans, and whose survivors of a bad
encounter spend their days in captivity on Earth ignoring us, while they
literally wallow in their own shit. Defecation is their main means of
communicating. How are we going to talk to them? Is this what it means to
be really alien?

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Mr. B1ack

2016-11-28 02:59:54 UTC

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 18:44:10 -0000, "Mike Dworetsky"

Would we even recognise them as intelligent?
Consider the science-fiction novel by Brian Aldiss, The Dark Light Years, in
which spacefaring humans encounter an alien species (the Utod) that shows no
interest in communication with humans, and whose survivors of a bad
encounter spend their days in captivity on Earth ignoring us, while they
literally wallow in their own shit. Defecation is their main means of
communicating. How are we going to talk to them? Is this what it means to
be really alien?

As I said somewhere in this, alien species are not
guarenteed to share much of our view of existence.
Quantitatively and qualitatively different senses and
brain organization (if they even have a 'brain') and
a host of different needs and priorities ... if you think
we have nothing in common with dolphins than we
SERIOUSLY have nothing in common with ET.

Hmm ... consider those fish and eels that "see" the
world by it's interaction with the electric fields they
give off and taste the world with their skin... if they
ever got enough IQ "reality" for them would have
a radically different look and feel.

Bob Casanova

2016-11-28 17:25:12 UTC

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 18:44:10 -0000, the following appeared
in sci.skeptic, posted by "Mike Dworetsky"

Would we even recognise them as intelligent?
Consider the science-fiction novel by Brian Aldiss, The Dark Light Years, in
which spacefaring humans encounter an alien species (the Utod) that shows no
interest in communication with humans, and whose survivors of a bad
encounter spend their days in captivity on Earth ignoring us, while they
literally wallow in their own shit. Defecation is their main means of
communicating. How are we going to talk to them?

Sounds like a perfect opportunity for quite a few
politicians and mainstream media "talking heads"...

Post by Mike Dworetsky
Is this what it means to
be really alien?

--
Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

Meteorite Debris

2018-04-17 14:00:12 UTC

Mr. B1ack

2018-04-17 14:51:49 UTC

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:30:12 +0930, Meteorite Debris

Wow ... I posted that awhile ago .............. hanging
out beyond the Ort cloud ? :-)

I think what you said demonstrates another fault in
"sci-fi reality" relative to aliens - not only will their
communications be indecipherable but also they
won't THINK like us. Would they even CARE what
we do to each other ? Would they find ANY of our
thoughts or activities to be interesting, even sane ?
Do they feel like we do - or at all ? Maybe we seem
like a bunch of monkeys on acid ... make a funny
documentary .........

I guess the math would be the same, but big whup.
Alien reasoning, priorities, emotions, senses,
motives, concerns, goals - safest to presume NOT
anything like humans.

Fortunately, as you noted, life with roughly similar
intelligence and expertise compared to ours is
gonna be vanishingly rare. Maybe just a few civs
per galaxy tops. Anything much beyond our level
and they may already be gone - or "gone" in other
ways.

And if lightspeed really IS a hard limit then just
forget about meeting ET. Our civ - and likely
any others - will get dispondent and create
more interesting virtual realities ... ultimately
to "live" only in uber-computers until the
universe pops or the backup battery goes
dead.

Mike Dworetsky

2018-04-18 13:47:40 UTC

Post by Mr. B1ack
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:30:12 +0930, Meteorite Debris

The best response might be silence. Given how we demonise members of
our own species how might ET species view us? But most probably ETs
may be rare on average succumbing to some variable of Drake's
Equation.

For a disturbing but still very readable science-fictional account of just
how alien these aliens and their thought processes might be, see if you can
get a copy of "The Dark Light Years" by Brian Aldiss.

Post by Mr. B1ack
I guess the math would be the same, but big whup.
Alien reasoning, priorities, emotions, senses,
motives, concerns, goals - safest to presume NOT
anything like humans.
Fortunately, as you noted, life with roughly similar
intelligence and expertise compared to ours is
gonna be vanishingly rare. Maybe just a few civs
per galaxy tops. Anything much beyond our level
and they may already be gone - or "gone" in other
ways.
And if lightspeed really IS a hard limit then just
forget about meeting ET. Our civ - and likely
any others - will get dispondent and create
more interesting virtual realities ... ultimately
to "live" only in uber-computers until the
universe pops or the backup battery goes
dead.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Mr. B1ack

2018-04-18 18:31:34 UTC

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:47:40 +0100, "Mike Dworetsky"

Post by Mr. B1ack
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:30:12 +0930, Meteorite Debris

The best response might be silence. Given how we demonise members of
our own species how might ET species view us? But most probably ETs
may be rare on average succumbing to some variable of Drake's
Equation.

Found a couple ads/reviews ....

"Weird" behavior is going to be a given with aliens.
Might be tolerable, might not.

I'm more concerned with meaningful communication
with aliens AT ALL. As I noted, despite many decades
of trying and increasingly powerful software aids, we
STILL can't figure out what dolphins are saying. We
know they ARE saying things via statistical analysis
but we're almost entirely in the dark about vocab,
syntax, grammar, meanings.

These beasties are NOT evolutionarily distant and they
live on the same planet as we do. Their wiring is just a
bit different and that creates a HUGE barrier to
understanding.

Mathematics has long been touted as a means to
communicate with aliens. Well ... it's proof of IQ
I supposed, but I don't think it's going to lead you
to much beyond that.

Let's hope ET doesn't show up.

jonathan

2018-04-18 23:17:52 UTC

Last year an absolutely wonderful movie came
out that was devoted to trying to communicate
with aliens that landed on Earth.

One of the best pure sci-fi movies of the year.
I won't spoil it by telling you what the
aliens were trying to tell us though.

12 alien spacecraft land in 12 different
regions around the world, each has 1/12 of
the message. And each of the 12 nations
have to try to decipher their portion with
the hope they can put it together.

The movie makes a great case for just how difficult
it could be to understand a totally alien intelligent
race. In the end they manage to decipher just
two words of the message, but how to interpret
the two words makes all the difference.

Here's a great trailer from the film

Mr. B1ack

2018-04-20 01:55:24 UTC

Post by jonathan

Last year an absolutely wonderful movie came
out that was devoted to trying to communicate
with aliens that landed on Earth.
One of the best pure sci-fi movies of the year.
I won't spoil it by telling you what the
aliens were trying to tell us though.
12 alien spacecraft land in 12 different
regions around the world, each has 1/12 of
the message. And each of the 12 nations
have to try to decipher their portion with
the hope they can put it together.
The movie makes a great case for just how difficult
it could be to understand a totally alien intelligent
race. In the end they manage to decipher just
two words of the message, but how to interpret
the two words makes all the difference.

Well I saw the film ... but I don't think they could
have figured out what the aliens were saying in
the time allotted. Oh, and then there's the
*meaning* of what they're saying ... what it
means to *them*. Add another layer of
subjectivity .........

Dolphins use ultrasonics to "see" as much as
we use our eyes. Dolphins even have some
special organs that help to focus and detect
and pre-filter ultrasonic frequencies. Just as
human discourse relies heavily on "seeing" -
shapes, colors, textures, overall impressions -
dolphin speech may largely substitute the
"soundiness" of things - and they can get as
much or more info from sound as we do from
sight, including things we don't such as exact
speed/range/density data.

By enhancing just ONE sense, dolphins move
into a significantly different sort of reality - one
to which we cannot easily relate. "Aliens" ...
it's a fair bet they're even MORE different in
terms of their senses and thus their ideas.

So, until I hear a dolphin give a lecture on
ultrsonic navigation I'm not going to put much
faith in talking to ANY space aliens.

jonathan

2018-04-21 13:45:31 UTC